From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from simark.ca by simark.ca with LMTP id oNWXN7NoDWa9hyEAWB0awg (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 10:33:23 -0400 Authentication-Results: simark.ca; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; secure) header.d=sourceware.org header.i=@sourceware.org header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=default header.b=ggww7WOW; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by simark.ca (Postfix, from userid 112) id D5A5B1E0C0; Wed, 3 Apr 2024 10:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server2.sourceware.org (server2.sourceware.org [8.43.85.97]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by simark.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C47761E030 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2024 10:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server2.sourceware.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5436E384645B for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2024 14:33:21 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 sourceware.org 5436E384645B DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sourceware.org; s=default; t=1712154801; bh=fS8Bkf2oXkWvguHYfk8dHKfQHuy6/SU8XAPm0+tndWo=; h=Subject:To:CC:Date:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: From:Reply-To:From; b=ggww7WOW25Rk4AY9kkx/7vpSJ6cxg2RWkSyg2Bj1iFON4PS7cV9EVKox9n/mF7lwV amSWA+u/vD0cO07H+fXimENGURWvunie411zrSbFzNvKsxwBnKrNko0Z0aoauJzAx9 ynwOPVVJ9717HRj0bamIQDUCOwuwISDdKIfhobUo= Received: from mx-2023-1.gwdg.de (mx-2023-1.gwdg.de [134.76.10.21]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A15B3846405; Wed, 3 Apr 2024 14:32:29 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.2 sourceware.org 6A15B3846405 ARC-Filter: OpenARC Filter v1.0.0 sourceware.org 6A15B3846405 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=sourceware.org; s=key; t=1712154751; cv=none; b=Il5fmVU9h9DT5I1+41rq0MC6RwgNybnB66OrC8hRPiNKFuS/L3zhczrnE/+lSTRqJf7Ro1aEY/jBfhYQuBf4WCcHKdn3r5VKXY4j82aj3b8EkGmBbjch5m9U7iSfP37Cn7k+AVCQMC+8zxv4Vk38nAfmS+wCMggtw2366GUtuNI= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=sourceware.org; s=key; t=1712154751; c=relaxed/simple; bh=hxPPJ9KyIVy1trgSn/9O1PbFa8vOIMAyYAR8RIT+XA4=; h=DKIM-Signature:Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Date:MIME-Version; b=rnP5uIOTb5yX0vdFrjpOacyJvKtCVVlaG1rLc/UL4mpd/n+4Ne4yHLor/C82NAfv/VY/6djXeDqbg2jyd/yDB+ZZ7TbuwM99p72P4jKaxoqaEHYZrRFKXztv7XYjlFw1DpQ7vZwNjiiRultvXFZCh8AnGhAaFsYUOt7Yn0QnqAw= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; server2.sourceware.org Received: from xmailer.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.29]:50544) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (GWDG Mailer) (envelope-from ) id 1rs1ez-005ukd-1V; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 16:32:17 +0200 Received: from excmbx-29.um.gwdg.de ([134.76.9.204] helo=email.gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (GWDG Mailer) (envelope-from ) id 1rs1ez-0007Su-0h; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 16:32:17 +0200 Received: from [192.168.0.221] (10.250.9.199) by EXCMBX-29.um.gwdg.de (134.76.9.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2507.37; Wed, 3 Apr 2024 16:32:16 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sourceware mitigating and preventing the next xz-backdoor To: Michael Matz CC: Ian Lance Taylor , Paul Koning , Paul Eggert , "Sandra Loosemore" , Mark Wielaard , , , , , Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 16:32:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8e877d2f-01e0-c786-dea5-265edbdc0c07@suse.de> References: <20240329203909.GS9427@gnu.wildebeest.org> <20240401150617.GF19478@gnu.wildebeest.org> <12215cd2-16db-4ee4-bd98-6a4bcf318592@cs.ucla.edu> <6239192ba9ff8aad0752309a54b633dc75a57c77.camel@tugraz.at> <8e877d2f-01e0-c786-dea5-265edbdc0c07@suse.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.46.4-2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [10.250.9.199] X-ClientProxiedBy: MBX19-GWD-08.um.gwdg.de (10.108.142.61) To EXCMBX-29.um.gwdg.de (134.76.9.204) X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by clamav X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, DKIM_VALID_EF, SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS, TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on server2.sourceware.org X-BeenThere: gdb@sourceware.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.30 Precedence: list List-Id: Gdb mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , From: Martin Uecker via Gdb Reply-To: Martin Uecker Errors-To: gdb-bounces+public-inbox=simark.ca@sourceware.org Sender: "Gdb" Am Mittwoch, dem 03.04.2024 um 16:00 +0200 schrieb Michael Matz: > Hello, >=20 > On Wed, 3 Apr 2024, Martin Uecker via Gcc wrote: >=20 > > > > Seems reasonable, but note that it wouldn't make any difference to > > > > this attack. The liblzma library was modified to corrupt the sshd > > > > binary, when sshd was linked against liblzma. The actual attack > > > > occurred via a connection to a corrupt sshd. If sshd was running a= s > > > > root, as is normal, the attacker had root access to the machine. N= one > > > > of the attacking steps had anything to do with having root access > > > > while building or installing the program. > >=20 > > There does not seem a single good solution against something like this. > >=20 > > My take a way is that software needs to become less complex. Do=C2=A0 > > we really still need complex build systems such as autoconf? >=20 > Do we really need complex languages like C++ to write our software in? = =20 > SCNR :) =C2=A0 Probably not. > Complexity lies in the eye of the beholder, but to be honest in=20 > the software that we're dealing with here, the build system or autoconf= =20 > does _not_ come to mind first when thinking about complexity. The backdoor was hidden in a complicated autoconf script... >=20 > (And, FWIW, testing for features isn't "complex". And have you looked at= =20 > other build systems? I have, and none of them are less complex, just=20 > opaque in different ways from make+autotools). I ask a very specific question: To what extend is testing=C2=A0 for features instead of semantic versions and/or supported standards still necessary? This seems like a problematic approach that=C2=A0 may have been necessary decades ago, but it seems it may be time to move on. Martin